Talk:FIFA Club World Cup

Fifa does recognize 1960 to 2004 as valid "Club World Cup"

The decision was made official at a FIFA Council meeting on October 27, 2017, in India, when president Gianni Infantino expressed his desire to create a more robust competition for the Club World Cup - which was made official in 2023 with the 2025 Super World Cup. There were 42 editions of the Intercontinental Cup - from 1960 to 2004 -, played between the champions of the Libertadores and the Champions League, with 25 different world champions. https://ge.globo.com/futebol/mundial-de-clubes/noticia/2023/12/23/fifa-nao-reconhece-os-titulos-de-mundiais-de-santos-flamengo-gremio-e-sao-paulo-checamos.ghtml

also https://twitter.com/FIFAcom/status/1338111177285640195

"It's official: FIFA recognized the Intercontinental Cups as world titles In this way, South America has a total of 13 champions between 1960 and 2004, six of them are Argentine teams: Boca (3), Independiente (2), River, Estudiantes, Racing and Vélez (1)" https://www.lanacion.com.ar/deportes/futbol/la-fifa-reconocio-las-copas-intercontinentales-como-titulos-del-mundo-nid2076625/ Kksssn (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

EDIT add more source "FIFA decided this Friday to officially recognize as champions of the Club World Cup the teams that won the Intercontinental Cup between 1960 and 2004, a group in which six Argentine teams enter, with the aim of establishing a unifying criterion between both tournaments." Kksssn (talk) 00:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

See above, everything is explained, this competition did not exist before 2000, how hard it is to understand that "world titles" and "FIFA Club World Cup" are NOT the same things. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Snowflake91, against change too. Although FIFA recognizes champions from both tournaments as world champions, they are different tournaments.

Yes, people mix everything up. Right now FIFA and all non-primary sources say that in 2025 we will have the inaugural edition of a new FIFA Club World Cup, so cannot be the same tournament as this one (that I suggest change name to FIFA Club World Championship). SinisterUnion (talk) 14:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Change name to "FIFA Club World Championship" and create a new article for the new "FIFA Club World Cup"

Analyzing FIFA's posts from the last days and also FIFA's website I definitely changed my opinion, since before that I was really undecided about how FIFA was really treating the new tournament.

But, at least in my opinion (that's why I'm bringing it up for discussion), now FIFA already decided that 2025 will be the 1st edition of a new FIFA Club World Cup since they are now treating it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".

On FIFA's website: "The inaugural edition of the FIFA Club World Cup will signal the start of a new era in club football history with a brand-new trophy becoming synonymous with the diversity and quality of the global game as club football brings the world together in the United States." [4] Also: "Find out the information on the new club tournament" [5]

On FIFA's Instagram: "...by the inaugural champion" [6]

But, how we will treat the old tournaments?

In my opinion, as FIFA already unified Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Championship (2000-2023) titles as world champions, also we already correctly treat as a continuation ("It ran from 1960 to 2004, when it was succeeded by the FIFA Club World Championship" - at Intercontinental Cup article) and now we have the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with almost the same format, I think the best thing to do is treat the last as a continuation, since all are Super cup like format and different tournaments from the FIFA Club World Cup (2025 onwards).

Finally, there are also non-primary sources adapting themselves to FIFA's decision to call it the new FIFA Club World Cup and 2025 as its inaugural edition, as we can see here: [1] or [2], for example.

SinisterUnion (talk) 15:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Last try to engage a discussion here, otherwise I will proceed to edit. Just updating everyone here, I applied for a ticket to watch the tournament and when registering my interest on FIFA's website, I came across the following message: "Join us at the first ever FIFA Club World Cup 2025™!" [1]

By the way, while talking to a friend who is a Borussia Dortmund fan, he corrected me when I said that at least since June FIFA has only been treating 2025 as the inaugural edition of its tournament. No. This has been going on since at least March when Borussia Dortmund's participation in the tournament was announced by FIFA: "German team become the latest club to qualify for the first edition of the new global tournament". [2]

Finally, another piece of news published by FIFA on its social media yesterday. They published it on Instagram stories and also on Facebook. [3] Open quotes: "...gave them enough points to qualify for the new tournament in the USA". [4]

Once again, this is in line with what FIFA has been preaching, as I said before, at least since March. So, I can't agree more that it's bizarre not to make a change after almost 6 months of stabilization in the way FIFA treats 2025 edition, as being the 1st one.

So, I suggest change this article name to FIFA Club World Championship (official tournament's name from 2000 to 2005) and create a new article for the new competition named FIFA Club World Cup. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We have to wait for what the other reliable secondary sources and statistical websites are gonna report, and not what the primary source (FIFA) says. When they say "new tournament" they might simply mean the new format? And how are you gonna name the new page, since the FIFA Club World Cup already exists? You cannot simply copy/paste the current content to FIFA Club World Championship and then create this page from scratch for 2025-onwards tournaments only due to several technical reasons. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We already have all important reliable secondary sources in the same line as the primary source (FIFA), for example ESPN, Sky News, AP News, etc., treating 2025 as the inaugural edition of a new tournament. [5][6][7]

Answering your question... no, when they say "new tournament" they emphasize inaugural edition in their articles.

And about the 2nd question... FIFA Club World Championship. No, we move this page to FIFA Club World Championship (Help:How to move a page) and create a new (correct) article for the new tournament (2025-onwards). SinisterUnion (talk) 15:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

You won't be able to create a new page called FIFA Club World Cup if you move the current page to FIFA Club World Championship, it will still be a redirect, unless it will be called FIFA Club World Cup (2025) or something like that. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

And we cannot really move the current page to "FIFA Club World Championship", that makes no sense at all, this is the old name of the tournament from 20+ years ago, the latest 2023 edition has been called "FIFA Club World Cup" so this needs to be the article title. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

What if we don't leave a redirect behind...

"FIFA Club World Championship" makes sense at all, more than that, it would follow a Wikipedia pattern. If you go to the article of the predecessor tournament, you see its name as Intercontinental Cup (football), but that name was used at the time of its creation (1960 until 1979), then later they changed the name to European/South American Cup (1980 until the last edition of that tournament, 2004). You can see the cover of the last edition, the 2004 Intercontinental Cup, that makes no reference to the name Intercontinental Cup, but rather to Toyota (sponsor's reason) European/South American Cup.

So, in my opinion, we follow Wikipedia rules and adapt the article to the new reality. Following FIFA and all reliable non-primary sources, the correct is move this page to "FIFA Club World Championship" and create a new article for the new "FIFA Club World Cup". SinisterUnion (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

No, because WP:COMMONNAME applies, literally none of the sources call this tournament "FIFA Club World Championship", you cannot rename it to some ancient name from 2000 just to make a space for the new article with the same name. And no, you cannot do it without a redirect either, per WP:COPYPASTEMOVE, history needs to be preserved as this would broke thousands of redirects when the articles would incorrectly redirect to the new 2025 competition instead to the 2000-2023 one. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but we can do a Wikipedia:History merging, creating the FIFA Club World Championship article (only a suggestion, but it can be other names like FIFA Club World Cup (2000-23), for example), then merge this article history there. Redirects need to be corrected if needed and we are here to do so. Then, start a new FIFA Club World Cup article (to the new tournament 2025-onwards).

The fact is, we need to find a solution and we cannot keep the article wrong, going against Wikipedia rules (in disagreement with primary source and all reliable secondary sources), only because we don't want the job to correct redirections. SinisterUnion (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

History merge and new tournament's article here now

After everything I already exposed, taking into account this article is wrong, going against Wikipedia rules since in disagreement with primary source and all reliable secondary sources, I created FIFA Club World Championship and requested that the page history of this page to be merged into the history of the new one. After the merge, we can start work here on the new tournament's article. SinisterUnion (talk) 03:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We JUST had a lengthy discussion about consensus building at WT:FOOTY and you are STILL trying to force your way through. This is beginning to border on disruptive editing. Do NOT make major changes like that unless you have a consensus to do so. Jay eyem (talk) 05:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

No, we had a discussion there about 1st edition of FIFA Club World Cup (where there is no more discussion, it has already been proven, following Wikipedia guidelines, with primary and secondary sources in agreement). Not about the name of the old FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (this discussion is here, in this talk page and without answer since 5 September until 16 September when I posted again, then only 1 user showed up to discuss and help improve Wikipedia). So, you cannot say it is bordering on disruptive editing, because I used Wikipedia admin's advice and proceed with the editing, based on the situation that was narrated. SinisterUnion (talk) 12:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You think changing the redirect from FIFA Club World Championship to represent the tournament from 2000-2023, without consensus, is acceptable? Especially since there was just an extensive conversation at WT:FOOTY about the lack of consensus to implement the changes you are asking for? After you posted discussions on three different talk pages instead of focusing the discussion on one page? Do we seriously need to bring this up again? You seriously don't understand why this could be considered disruptive? Jay eyem (talk) 04:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The change was reverted already. Read my comment and try to interprete it. I know you can do it. Whoever goes to the battlefield trying to revolutionize, making improvements and fighting to make Wikipedia better, will always end up fighting lazy people that don't want to adapt themselves to reality, just because they will have too much job, like correct too many redirects, for example. SinisterUnion (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus. Read it. Or do you want to re-open the recently closed discussion at WT:FOOTY since these conversations are very obviously related to one another? We can ask the closing mod if you'd like. Jay eyem (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I already know it. It is another discussion here and we don't need to re-open anything. This discussion is happening here. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, more examples to prove what I'm talking about and that a change should be made to keep this article updated. We do need to follow Wikipedia rules and respect primary source and reliable non-primary sources. As I said, we cannot just "wait", because "I bet FIFA will change its mind in the future", as I've heard, only to avoid "too much job".

Just one more in hundreds of examples of reliable non-primary sources also treating 2025 as the inaugural edition, "the inaugural 32-team FIFA Club World Cup, as the countdown to the first edition in the United States next year continues", and no, it doesn't say first expanded tournament or something like that, it clearly says only "inaugural" and "1st edition" in the same phrase. Also, "The emblem, which will be adapted and used for all future editions of the tournament", denotes a grouping and continuity from 2025 onwards, once again supporting the fact that this is the 1st edition. [8][9]

So, we need to adapt this article name and create a new one for the new tournament. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

That FrontRowSoccer article may actually be the only non-primary reliable source you have shared so far that does not also reference it being an expanded tournament. Since you clearly have no interest in letting this go, I am going to go ahead and ask the closing admin if they would re-open that discussion so that we can discuss things further. Jay eyem (talk) 04:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I can re-open that discussion and close this one, or leave it as the status quo. I don't think it matters where the discussion takes place, but I think there only needs to be one going on at a time. Black Kite (talk) 11:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Personally I would prefer re-opening the conversation at WT:FOOTY since that had a fair amount of engagement and will likely result in greater participation. I am of course happy to leave things as they are, provided there is a consensus reached before any changes are made in the future. Jay eyem (talk) 03:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jay eyem and SinisterUnion: I'm not extremely invested in this discussion, but it's worth noting that FIFA just published an article about the 2024 FIFA Intercontinental Cup. In the section "Evolution of FIFA's annual global club competition", I think it is laid out quite clearly that FIFA will recognise their Intercontinental Cup as the successor to the FIFA Club World Championship (2000–2005)/FIFA Club World Cup (2006–2023). Of course this causes quite a mess as far as our articles go. If it were agreed to separate the topics, I would say this article should be moved to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023). S.A. Julio (talk) 03:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Black Kite The discussion can continue here, you don’t need to re-open there and close here.

So, as @S.A. Julio said, FIFA published an article today defining many situations (which for some people was already obvious, but for other people it was still not clear):

First, the FIFA Intercontinental Cup is a continuation of the old tournament held between 2000-23, which was already a continuation of the Intercontinental Cup held between 1960-2004.

Second, from 2025 onwards we will have a new tournament, the FIFA Club World Cup.[10]

I agree with @S.A. Julio to move this article to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023). SinisterUnion (talk) 04:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not it was obvious or ostensibly unclear isn't the point. It's pretty obvious that all of this is just branding for FIFA. It is also obvious that there have been multiple tournaments in the past that have used the branding "FIFA Club World Cup". The point is that you need to wait until 1. things are official, because we are just NOW getting things from FIFA regarding the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup and thus vis a vis the Club World Cup and 2. you need to wait until there is a consensus to make any changes. Sometimes things just take time. We have WP:CRYSTAL for a reason, even when it seems fairly obvious what the outcome will be. Jay eyem (talk) 07:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

First of all, no, we are not "just NOW getting things from FIFA". FIFA has been publishing about FIFA Club World Cup as a new tournament, inaugural edition and 1st edition at least since March, according to many sources I already posted here. Second, "things are official", FIFA has just published an article confirming what it has been saying since March.[11] So, it is obviously official, since it is on FIFA's website and, also, we have numerous reliable non-primary sources publishing it too.

This WP:CRYSTAL is perfect for those who try to use futurology as an argument, saying that in the future FIFA will change again the way it handles the tournament. Thanks for bringing it up.

So, we already have the facts about this situation. Not to be rude, but I'm going to leave this talk that's only going on with you here. Right now, I'm going to focus on the debate that really matters and makes sense about this case, which refers to adapt Wikipedia to reality, in terms of articles to be created, moved, etc. SinisterUnion (talk) 00:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I am done talking to you on this as well. You not understanding basic rules on Wikipedia and your blatant disregard of WP:CONSENSUS are all clear. Jay eyem (talk) 03:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately the problem is that FIFA is attempting pretty clear revisionist history. It is not difficult to find reliable, secondary sources that refer to several of the previous tournaments as "FIFA Club World Cup", whereas all of a sudden FIFA wants to declare that, actually, all of that history belongs to the "FIFA Intercontinental Cup", which is pretty clearly just a rebrand of the pre-existing format. At no point has it ever been up for debate that the 2025 FIFA Club World Cup is a brand new format, it is just factually incorrect that it will be the inaugural edition of a tournament called the FIFA Club World Cup. I can see the merit of moving the article to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023) and leaving FIFA Club World Cup as a disambiguation page and eventually we can determine the primary topic. The problem of course is that the Club World Cup is NOT a continuation of the pre-existing Intercontinental Cup, which is pretty clear from the fact that they ran alongside each other once in 2000 and then for multiple years only the Intercontinental Cup was played (which is suspiciously missing from FIFA's post), so we should not be merging the histories of those two tournaments together, regardless of whatever FIFA says. Jay eyem (talk) 07:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jay eyem: Yes, it's a mess of a situation. There could be a debate between whether we should follow what FIFA recognise as the history/continuation of their competitions, versus what reliable secondary sources state (while speculative, I imagine this will shift with time as well). However, in my opinion there are four distinct competitions here that deserve separate articles:

• Annual tournaments to determine the club world champions (as recognised by FIFA)
  • European/South American Cup: 1960–2004
  • FIFA Club World Championship/Club World Cup: 2000–2023
  • FIFA Intercontinental Cup: 2024 onwards
• Quadrennial tournament to determine the club world champions (as recognised by FIFA)
  • FIFA Club World Cup: 2025 onwards

I don't think we need to merge/combine any competitions here, it's a similar situation to how the Premier League doesn't inherit the history of the Football League First Division from 1888 to 1992, yet both competitions determined the English champions.

Therefore, the best approach to me would be to move this page to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023), and then create a new article at FIFA Club World Cup covering the tournament from 2025. Everything else remains the same. However, there should be a wider discussion/consensus before making any such moves/changes. (Or who knows, maybe this expanded competition will go up in smoke à la 2001.) S.A. Julio (talk) 08:14, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, I think there are 2 options, taking into account patterns Wikipedia already used. First one is to do what @S.A. Julio said, that I won't go into more arguments and examples, because he's already done that and I think it is an excellent option.

The other option is to do what Wikipedia has adopted regarding the Brazilian League, which unified the tournaments from 1959 to 1970 with the original ones (1971-). Despite being different tournaments, they are all treated equally by Wikipedia, due to the fact that it defines the Brazilian champion. Same as FIFA "recognising all European and South American teams that won the Intercontinental Cup – played between 1960 and 2004 – as club world champions", also treating Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (2000-2023) as an "evolution of FIFA’s annual global club competition and, finally, with the fact that FIFA defines that FIFA Intercontinental Cup "has an exciting new format", so if the tournament has a new format, this cannot be its first edition (it refers to a unification - just like the list of world champions that have already been unified from 1960 to 2023).[12]

So, the other option would be to unify all content from Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023) into FIFA Intercontinental Cup's article, requesting the page history to be merged and leaving redirects, and the FIFA Club World Cup article for the new tournament from 2025 onwards. SinisterUnion (talk) 00:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Under no circumstances should the 1960–2004 tournament be merged with any other. All sources, including the FIFA one linked above, agree that it was a distinct competition that did not continue on. BLAIXX 03:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that latter choice is absolutely not an option. These are all distinct tournaments with their own history, despite whatever nonsense revisionist history FIFA is trying to pull. If we are going to make any changes, I think the proposal by S.A. Julio is the only remotely acceptable proposal. Jay eyem (talk) 03:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favour of not making any changes at least until the end of the 2024 IC to get a better idea of how sources other than FIFA will be reporting it. In my opinion, it's not unreasonable for FIFA to call the 2024 IC a continuation of the 2023 CWC given the similarities of the formats but I want to see what actually happens. BLAIXX 03:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I too think it might be best to wait, we do not need to rush to a decision. Assuming the likely scenario that Real Madrid win the 2024 Intercontinental Cup, we can see whether FIFA and other sources recognise it as their 1st or 6th title. However, the format certainly had a significant shift from 2023 to 2024, no longer played entirely in a centralized location (thus no host slot) and now taking multiple months to complete. S.A. Julio (talk) 05:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

You wrong @Blaixx. As I said before, beyond that FIFA unified their titles as world champions, if you read well that article, you can see FIFA shows the history of continuity, from the 1960-2004 Intercontinental Cup to more recently the FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (2000-2023), until the creation of the FIFA Intercontinental Cup.

As another example I forgot to give earlier, actually the best example since it is exactly the same case as this one, we have the FIFA Arab Cup. It was created in 1963 by UAFA and only in 2021 was organized for the 1st time by FIFA. So, it was created as Arab Cup and renamed FIFA Arab Cup in 2021. Same case of International Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA International Cup (2024-). Also, if you go to the FIFA Arab Cup's article here on Wikipedia, you can see it is considered a continuation and it is everything in the same article.

The fact is we do need to make changes to keep Wikipedia accurate. The options are on the table, we just can't be lazy and keep the same wrong and inaccurate, hoping FIFA change its position at some point. That's not going to happen, since FIFA and all important non-primary sources are in agreement, at least since March, and each passing month it becomes clearer. SinisterUnion (talk) 05:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No rush to make any changes now. Island92 (talk) 06:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I can agree we don't need to rush to make any changes right now regarding FIFA Intercontinental Cup, despite FIFA Arab Cup example I gave, which makes an edit already possible, following a pattern from Wikipedia itself.

However, about the new FIFA Club World (2025-onwards), we can't just hide the truth and leave things the way they are. It's clear as daylight that FIFA and other reliable non-primary sources treat it as a different tournament.

I'm here to make Wikipedia bigger, better and more reliable. I'm well aware that those who come in to revolutionize things end up bothering people who are complacent, but I don't care. Here we have ideas to exchange. No ideas for the falter. SinisterUnion (talk) 12:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

If you continue to cast aspersions ("bothering people who are complacent") you are likely not to be editing anything. Please stop doing that. Black Kite (talk) 14:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you threatening me for a comment directed to lazy people?

That comment was directed to people who are lazy, by no means it was directed to all the people commenting here. There are excellent editors here, of the highest rank, to whom I take my hat off and use them as a source of inspiration. But, if you want me to end up "editing anything" go ahead. I don't care at all. As I said, I'm here to revolutionize, trying make Wikipedia bigger and better every day. I will do it and I know lazy people will get mad on me, that's what I meant. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

You are conflating the individual tournaments with the title of “club world champions”. FIFA is quite clear that the IC and the CWC are distinct (even mentioning that they ran concurrently at one point). Yes they retroactively awarded the IC winners the title of “club world champions” but no, they did not retroactively merge the two competitions together. BLAIXX 16:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not conflicting with individual tournaments with the title of “club world champions”. I know that. We all know IC and the CWC were distinct tournaments. The situation I exposed here and I brought it up for discussion, is about what we will do to adapt Wikipedia articles to reality. Doing a long study here, analyzing similar cases and situations, we have these 2 options already presented previously. I have already given some examples, but I believe that the most emblematic is the FIFA Arab Cup one (because it is exactly the same case as the FIFA Intercontinental Cup), which we treat as the same tournament as Arab Cup (before being rename FIFA Arab Cup after FIFA started organizing it in 2021). The other option is to leave four articles for the four distinct competitions, the options I gave here and @S.A. Julio exemplified here.

I'm just bringing viable options to the debate, I'm not saying I agree more with that merge option. Actually, if there was a vote, I would vote in favor of the 4 articles for the 4 different tournaments, that I think is the most accurate. SinisterUnion (talk) 17:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)